Talk:Arameans

Hey this is just a question, but as we all know Arameans clearly dont exist today.

So i was thinking maybe i could a part of where they went extinct? Assyrianmaps (talk) 09:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Any professor and any linguist in the world confirms that Arameans exist and that Syriac Christians: Syriacs, Melkites, Nestorians, Chaldeans are literally Arameans. Open any book! 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

People who push Assyrian POV like you and @Shmayo should not edit this page since you only try to erase or confuse people about Arameans. Your only goal is to push an ‘Assyrian’ view/identity on Aramean/Syriac Christians! You don’t stand for the truth you are biased 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Arameans are still alive. By reading Syriac literature, which is the most relevant to the topic of Arameans, you'd read that the Arameans are very alive and have preserved their culture, language and religion. User623921 (talk) 11:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2024

It says Arameans were. But still today Arameans are alive and still exist! It realy hurts us seeing this written considering the many genocides on our people. Can you please edit it to say are instead of were. Thank you! 92.109.209.55 (talk) 11:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Skitash (talk) 11:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

all the scources can be found on this dutch wikepedia page. https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramee%C3%ABrs 92.109.209.55 (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Arameans dont exist today, i have alot of sources to confirm that today those who call themselves “Arameans” today are separatists 2A00:1598:5000:3C01:5112:FC65:A201:A83B (talk) 09:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Lies like these can only come from an Assyrianists. Sources? What a joke! Any professor or scholar writes that Syriac Christians are Arameans. Nestorians, Melkites, Syriacs, Chaldeans are of Aramean origin. Read any book about Syriac Christians by professors! 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2024

As a result of migratory processes, various Aramean groups were settled throughout the Ancient Near East, and their presence is recorded in the regions of Assyria,[49] Babylonia,[50] Anatolia,[51] Phoenicia,[52] Palestine,[53] Egypt[54] and Northern Arabia.[55]. Change "Palestine" to "Israel" or to "Kingdom of Israel" or to "Kingdoms of Israel and Judea" Justification: as this paragraph relates to a pre-Hellenization period, before Roman rule, that region wasn't named Palestine yet. The name "Syria-Palestina" was a denomination the Romans gave it after the destruction of the Second Temple and rainsacking of Jerusalem following the Bar Kokhba revolt (along with several other Israelite uprisings). As this event only happened in the 1st century AD, it would be incorrect to refer to this Levantine region as "Palestine" during the time discussed in this particular paragraph. 2804:18:185D:233C:1:0:F2E8:ED04 (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: We should stick to what the source says. Skitash (talk) 19:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I just gave sources that say the name of the region wasn't Palestine up until the 1st century AD. Shouldn't we be accurate in the terms we use? 2804:18:185D:233C:1:0:F2E8:ED04 (talk) 19:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Arameans are still living today

Separatists or not, there is a considerable number of people that consider themselves as Arameans. This ethnic denomination is even recognized by the State of Israel in the population census to describe ethnic minorities whitin the country. The same goes for Assyrians, Druze and others. We must respect the right for self-determination to all the peoples, including the ones that dont possess a National State, such as the Kurds, Yazidis, Catalans, etc. 2804:18:185D:233C:1:0:F2E8:ED04 (talk) 19:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

As long as user @Shmayo keeps reverting or changing any positive edit about this page it is impossible to enrich this article!! 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Syriac Christians are Arameans. Any source confirms it. I can add 1000 reliable sources which confirm that Syriacs are Arameans. Anything written about Arameans by ‘Assyrian’ individuals who push the Assyrian POV is not reliable and contains lies or manipulations. 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2024

As a result of migratory processes, various Aramean groups were settled throughout the Ancient Near East, and their presence is recorded in the regions of Assyria,[49] Babylonia,[50] Anatolia,[51] Phoenicia,[52] Palestine,[53] Egypt[54] and Northern Arabia.[55]. Change "Palestine" to "Israel" or to "Kingdom of Israel" or to "Kingdoms of Israel and Judea" Change "Palestine" to "Israel" or to "Kingdom of Israel" or to "Kingdoms of Israel and Judea" Justification: as this paragraph relates to a pre-Hellenization period, before Roman rule, that region wasn't named Palestine yet. The name "Syria-Palestina" was a denomination the Romans gave it after the destruction of the Second Temple and rainsacking of Jerusalem following the Bar Kokhba revolt (along with several other Israelite uprisings). As this event only happened in the 1st century AD, it would be incorrect to refer to this Levantine region as "Palestine" during the time discussed in this particular paragraph. 2804:18:185D:233C:1:0:F2E8:ED04 (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: In the English language, Palestine best describes this geographic region in the Southern Levant. We do not use religiously affiliated language when referring to geographic places, facts take precedence, as indicated by WP RS. The comment you also made above is also factually incorrect, Druze are most certainly Arabs by any and all metric. JJNito197 (talk) 12:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Shmayo’s pushing POV

POV been the case for a long time. User @Shmayo is again cutting off parts of the Arameans page. What can we do about this? 2A02:A420:26B:9AD9:1C60:80D6:393D:E16A (talk) 15:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Shmayo pushing POV !!!

User @Shmayo pushes constantly his POV on this article. It is impossible to enrich this article. Shmayo keeps manipulating and deleting anything that shows something positive about this page!! 2A02:A420:578:67E7:186C:D49B:195A:B49F (talk) 17:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Arameans do exist today! Stop denying our existence. We have self-identified ourselves as Arameans since the fourth century! I therefore suggest this article to include that the modern Arameans are alive and not only speak of us of ancient times. Allow me to present some sayings by our people, which advocates an existing Aramean identity:

"But the Philosopher of the Arameans (i.e. Bardaisan) made himself a laughing-stock among Arameans and Greeks" (S.Ephraim's Prose Refutations of Mani, Marcion and Bardaisan. Transcribed from the Palimpsest B.M. Add. 14623 by the late C. W. MITCHELL, M.A., C.F., volume 2 (1921) pp.7)

"He who became a crown for the entire Arameandom, (and) by him we have been brought close to spiritual beauty;" (Ed. Joseph Amar, A Metrical Homily on Holy Mar Ephrem by Mar Jacob of Serugh, Patrologia Orientalis 47,1, p. 155)

"It is in this way we the Arameans, that is to say Syriacs [...]" (Maurice Brière, Les Homiliae Cathedrales de Sévère d'Antioche Traduction Syriaque de Jacques d'Edesse (Suite) Homelies CXX A CXXV in F. Graffin, Patrologia Orientalis Tome XXIX-Fasicule 1, p. 196)

Saint Jacob of Urhoy/Edessa († 708), one of the most prolific writers of syriac literature, born at the village of Ayndaba in the district of Gumyah, in the province of Antioch about 633.

He says in his book "The Six Days":

"It appears that the south was so named also by us Arameans. But as for the north, it is not known to us why it was called (such) by the ancient sons of Aram." (Schtoth Yaume: Hexaemeron, Die Schöpfungslehre des Jakob von Edessa (+708). Nach der Estrangelo Handschrift, die 839 n. Chr. geschrieben wurde; abgeschrieben von Erzbischof J.J. Cicek, Verlag Bar Hebräus, Losser-Holland 1985, p. 60)

There is so much more, I had to keep it short. Besides a evident continuity of Arameans, the term Syrian (Syriac) was only applied to the Assyrians prior to the Greeks specifying this term to only the Arameans, it derives from the Greek word 'Σύριοι', looking at Syriac literature, we will see that Syriac was equated to Aramean only. Eventually the Arameans adopted this term to themselves, the Arameans were the only ones to do so. This is evident in the works of Theodor Nöldeke, Mor Michael Rabo and Mor Dionysius. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User623921 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2024

Introduction

The Arameans, an ancient Semitic people, remain a distinct community today, despite challenges to their identity and recognition. This proposal outlines the evidence for the ongoing existence of the Arameans and advocates for efforts to preserve and support their unique cultural, linguistic, and religious heritage.

Evidence of Continued Existence

Language and Heritage

Modern Aramaic dialects, such as Classical Syriac and Turoyo, are still spoken by communities primarily associated with Syriac Christian traditions. These dialects, derived from ancient Aramaic, provide a direct linguistic link to the Arameans of antiquity.

Cultural Identity

Aramean communities maintain a rich cultural heritage, including traditional music, dance, and religious practices. These traditions are passed down through generations, serving as a living testament to their enduring identity.

Religious Communities

Many Arameans belong to Syriac Christian denominations, including the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East. These religious institutions use Aramaic in liturgical settings, preserving the language and reinforcing Aramean cultural identity.

Self-Identification

A significant number of people in the Middle East and the global diaspora explicitly identify as Arameans. In some countries, such as Israel, governments have officially recognized Arameans as a distinct ethnic group, affirming their identity.

Diaspora and Preservation Efforts

Due to displacement and migration, many Arameans have established communities in Europe, North America, and Australia. These diaspora communities actively preserve their identity through cultural organizations, religious institutions, and language programs.

I will now provide some sources from history that testify to the continuity of the Aramean identity.

Saint Jakob of Serugh, born around 451 AD, testifies to an Aramean identity. He writes: “the Church, daughter of the Arameans.” (Ming 480, f. 303r, Copied: 1713 AD in Mardin).

https://web.facebook.com/profile/1256491957/search/?q=bath%20oromoye

Saint Severus of Antioch, born around 465 AD, testifies to an Aramean identity. He writes: "It is in this way we the Arameans, that is to say Syriacs [...]."

https://archive.org/details/leshomiliaecathe0000seve/page/196/mode/2up

Sarkis Bahira, estimated to have lived in the 6th or 7th century, writes: “Land of the Arameans.”

https://web.facebook.com/profile/1256491957/search/?q=sarkis%20bahira

Saint Michael the Great, born in 1126, wrote: “The kingdoms which have been established in antiquity by our race, (that of) the Arameans, namely the descendants of Aram, who were called Syriacs.” Note that he says “our race,” indicating he was part of that race, namely the Arameans.

https://archive.org/details/chroniquedemiche04mich/page/748/mode/2up

Bar Salibi, born in the 12th century, writes: “The Armenians say: ‘From whom do you descend—you who are Syrians by race?’ Against them, we will say: Neither do you know from whom you descend. The name ‘Armenian’ is derived from ‘Armenia,’ which is the name of a country (and not of a person). It is we (Syrians) who have enlightened your authors and revealed to them that you are descending from Togarma, who was from the children of Japhet. As to us Syrians, we descend racially from Shem, and our father is Kemuel, son of Aram, and from this name of Aram, we are also called sometimes in the Books by the name of ‘Arameans.’”

https://dokumen.pub/qdownload/the-work-of-dionysius-barsalbi-against-the-armenians-woodbrooke-studies-4-9781463214241.html

For more sources on the continuity and existence of our identity, please refer to https://aramean-dem.org/English/History/Evidences_of_our_Aramean_origin/Evidences_of_our_Aramean_origin.htm and see the extensive documentation available there. I could list many other sources, but let’s look at more modern ones. Is the identity that was testified millennia ago still amongst us? Here it is said that the Arameans must also be included. Chaldeans and Assyrians already are, but not the Arameans (2016).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kEPRek0gTM

Our current Patriarch says: “Our ancestors, the Arameans.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXXPY0XSYG0

Here is our current Patriarch with other Clergymen of our Church, together singing about Arameandom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVc70PWmEM

Our previous Patriarch, His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, said: “The Syriac language is the Aramaic language itself, and the Arameans are the Syrians themselves. Whoever has made a distinction between them has erred.”

https://ia802806.us.archive.org/8/items/syrianorthodoxch0000mari/syrianorthodoxch0000mari.pdf

This is just a few of many documentations of our Aramean identity still being alive and preserved. We’ve also got multiple Aramean organizations. In Sweden, there are SAAF, SAUF, and Syrianska Riksförbundet. We’ve also got the World Council of Arameans, previously known as the Syriac Universal Alliance, an international non-government umbrella organization whose membership consists of several national associations representing Arameans from various countries around the world. We’ve also got Suryoyo Sat, an Aramaic-language TV channel broadcasting from Södertälje, Sweden. We’ve also got numerous other organizations in Germany, the Netherlands, and other countries.

Conclusion

The Arameans are a living people with a rich cultural and linguistic heritage that continues to contribute to global diversity. Recognizing their existence and addressing the challenges they face are essential steps in preserving this unique identity for future generations. This proposal calls for collaborative efforts among Aramean communities, scholars, and policymakers to ensure the survival and flourishing of the Aramean people in the modern era.

Proposal

What I am proposing is an edit request to update this Wikipedia page so that it reflects the true identity of the Arameans and does not erase us from history. We are alive—do not deny our existence. Please do not write in a manner that suggests the Arameans were merely an ancient people who no longer exist. Allow me to edit the page freely, under the supervision of administrators, to include sources and demonstrate the true continuity of our people. User623921 (talk) 12:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC) User623921 (talk) 12:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC) User623921 (talk) 12:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2024

To follow up on the rejection of my previous edit request, my proposal is to shift the focus from the past to the present. We should stop referring to the Arameans as if they are no longer extant. When discussing the historical Arameans in the 'History' section, please specify them as 'ancient Arameans.' Move the current 'top' section to the 'History' section, and instead, we should include the following in the 'top' section:

The Arameans are an indigenous ethnic group native to the Near East, with their most prominent historical and cultural presence in southeastern Turkey, particularly in the region of Tur Abdin. Modern Arameans trace their cultural and historical lineage to the ancient Arameans, a Semitic people who originated in the Levant and rose to prominence during the first millennium BCE. The Arameans played a significant role in shaping the linguistic, cultural, and religious heritage of the Near East and Mesopotamia, particularly through the spread of the Aramaic language.[1][2]

Today, modern Arameans primarily identify with Christian communities, including the Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, and Maronite churches.[3][4]

Language and Cultural Legacy

The Aramaic language, introduced by the ancient Arameans, became the lingua franca of the Near East during the first millennium BCE and maintained its significance under various empires, including the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian Empires. Today, Neo-Aramaic dialects, such as Turoyo, are spoken by Aramean communities, particularly in southeastern Turkey, northeastern Syria, and the diaspora. These dialects represent some of the oldest continuously spoken languages, with a rich literary and liturgical tradition still used in Christian rites.[5][6][7]

Aramaic has also influenced other languages, including Hebrew and Arabic, and played a pivotal role in cultural and religious exchanges in the ancient world. Its historical significance is highlighted by its use as the language spoken by Jesus, cementing its importance within Christian heritage.[8][9]

Religious Identity

The modern Arameans are predominantly Christian, adhering to denominations that use Classical Syriac as a liturgical language. These include the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, and, to some extent, the Maronite Church. The Arameans were among the earliest groups to embrace Christianity, alongside Assyrians, Greeks, Armenians, and Nabataeans. Christianity remains a core aspect of Aramean identity and has profoundly shaped their cultural preservation over centuries.[10][11]

Geographic Distribution and Modern Diaspora

The traditional homeland of the Arameans includes parts of modern-day southeastern Turkey (notably Tur Abdin), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. Within Turkey, the monasteries and villages of Tur Abdin remain a vital center of Aramean cultural and religious life. Political instability, civil wars, and regional conflicts have forced many Arameans to migrate. Today, large diaspora communities exist in Europe, particularly in Sweden, Germany, and the Netherlands, as well as in North America and Australia.[12][13]

Despite these challenges, Arameans have remained active in preserving their identity, culture, and language. Neo-Aramaic language education, religious practices, and cultural advocacy are central to their efforts in maintaining their heritage in both their traditional homelands and diaspora.[14][15]

Historical Challenges and Modern Advocacy

Aramean communities have faced numerous challenges throughout history, including forced displacement, assimilation pressures, and cultural erasure. During the early 20th century, the Sayfo genocide (1915–1917) led to the mass killing and displacement of Arameans, alongside other Christian minorities, during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.[16][17]

More recently, the rise of extremist groups in Syria and Iraq, such as ISIS, has threatened the survival of Aramean communities in their traditional homelands. These groups have targeted Arameans and other minorities, leading to further displacement and endangerment of their cultural heritage.[18][19]

In response, Aramean advocacy organizations have worked to preserve their language, culture, and history. This includes efforts to gain recognition as a distinct ethnic group in countries such as Sweden and Israel, where significant Aramean communities exist. Additionally, restoration of historical monuments, documentation of their cultural practices, and promotion of Neo-Aramaic education are integral to these preservation efforts.[20][21]

---

References

1. Lipiński, Edward. *The Aramaeans: Their Ancient History, Culture, Religion*. Peeters Publishers, 2000. 2. Younger, K. Lawson. *A Political History of the Arameans: From Their Origins to the End of Their Polities*. SBL Press, 2016. 3. Frye, Richard N. "The Near East in the Neo-Assyrian Period." *Journal of Near Eastern Studies*. 4. Butcher, Kevin. *Roman Syria and the Near East*. Getty Publications, 2003. 5. Brock, Sebastian P. "An Overview of Syriac Literature." *Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies*. 6. Heinrichs, Wolfhart. *Studies in Neo-Aramaic Dialects*. Harrassowitz Verlag, 2000. 7. Beyer, Klaus. *The Aramaic Language: Its Distribution and Subdivisions*. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1986. 8. Fitzmyer, Joseph A. *A Guide to the Aramaic Dead Sea Scrolls*. SBL Press, 1995. 9. Millar, Fergus. *The Roman Near East: 31 BC–AD 337*. Harvard University Press, 1993. 10. Griffith, Sidney H. *The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque*. Princeton University Press, 2008. 11. Segal, Judah B. *The Aramaic Texts in Historical Perspective*. Oxford University Press, 1970. 12. Hitti, Philip K. *History of Syria: Including Lebanon and Palestine*. Macmillan, 1951. 13. Gaunt, David. *Massacres, Resistance, Protectors: Muslim-Christian Relations in Eastern Anatolia during World War I*. Gorgias Press, 2006. 14. Travis, Hannibal. "The Assyrian Genocide: Cultural and Political Legacies." *Genocide Studies International*. 15. BetBasoo, Peter. "Modern Arameans: History and Culture." *Aramean Voice*. 16. "The Arameans of Syria: A Cultural History." *Journal of Semitic Studies*. 17. Al-Maqdisi, Muhammad. "Ethnic and Religious Minorities in the Middle East." *Contemporary Review of the Middle East*. 18. United Nations Declaration on Indigenous Rights. 19. Aramean Organizations of Europe: Reports on Aramean Identity and Advocacy.

In my previous edit request, I submitted a few of the many sources suggesting an Aramean continuity and affirming that the Arameans are still extant. User623921 (talk) 14:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: I suggest you propose incremental changes, one sentence at a time, to give the reviewers a chance to assess them without spending too much time on them. M.Bitton (talk) 13:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Ultraodan (talk) 06:07, 27 December 2024 (UTC)